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On Sunday 31 October Andrew Marr interviewed Home Secretary Theresa May. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR: The Home Secretary spent yesterday chairing the Cobra Emergency Committee. She's been talking to her counterpart in the United States and briefing the Prime Minister. There's no doubting the seriousness with which Whitehall and Washington is treating the latest terror alert, so how is it likely to affect the rest of us and how concerned should we be? Well Theresa May is with me now. Good morning, Home Secretary. Thank you for coming in. Let me ask first about what we know of this plot. There was a slight confusion in words as to whether … as to how certain you were, we were, about whether or not this was a dummy attack, was this a real attack, and was it designed to destroy the planes in mid-air. THERESA MAY: Well certainly in the early stages, Andrew, before some of the forensic examination had been completed, it wasn't clear whether this was what's known as a viable device. I.e. it had explosive material in it, but was there something there that could actually have led it to explode? What became clear sort of overnight Friday/Saturday, into Saturday, was that in fact it was a viable device, so it could have exploded. It could have exploded on the aircraft and it could have exploded when the aircraft was in mid-air. And had that happened … ANDREW MARR: And brought down the … THERESA MAY: … had that happened, it could have brought the aircraft down. ANDREW MARR: And do you have any further information about whether this was intended to happen over Britain or over America? THERESA MAY: No, it's difficult to say this for this reason. That, as I understand it, with these freight flights sometimes the routing can change at the last minute, so it's difficult for those who are planning the detonation to know exactly where the … - if it is detonated to a time, for example - exactly where the aircraft would be. ANDREW MARR: Now this came from a specific source in Yemen, a tip-off, and the case was opened and looked at. And in the first search the device wasn't found. It was only when a second search was instituted, which suggests that it was very carefully hidden and very difficult to detect. THERESA MAY: Well certainly we have to be looking at our processes of searching and how we detect these devices. And I think the crucial thing here is that we did find it and that we were able to take action on it. And of course as a result of having found this, as a result of what's happened, obviously this device here in the UK which we're focusing on, but there was also another device in Dubai - what we have done and did yesterday following the Cobra is obviously taken action in relation to future unaccompanied freight from the Yemen, which would either be coming into the UK or through the UK, and we've banned that freight. ANDREW MARR: Do you feel and does Cobra feel that freight by air is the Achilles heel of the system at the moment? THERESA MAY: I wouldn't say that. What I would say is this: that obviously from the terrorists' point of view, they are constantly try… ANDREW MARR: Looking for a new way … THERESA MAY: … looking for new ways. It is a constant battle for us against the terrorists and we should be clear about that and so we are constantly looking at how we can ensure that we're improving our multi-layered approach. And I think it's important to say that yes we have an approach which is about physical security at airports, but also obviously police work and intelligence. ANDREW MARR: But given the quantity of freight travelling around the world, which hasn't gone through anything like the kind of security checks that anyone walking onto a plane would expect, this is presumably a massive economic issue as well as a security issue? THERESA MAY: Well of course there are security issues here. We are looking and we will look at screening of freight. We'll be looking at the processes that we use. We'll be talking with the industry about these issues. I think crucially, from the point of view of what has happened here, we did yesterday act, we did direct the industry that they should not be accepting freight originating from the Yemen and bringing that into the UK or crucially transiting it through the UK. But of course … ANDREW MARR: But if there hadn't been a tip-off, nobody would have found this? THERESA MAY: I was going to say of course in the order of things, we are always looking at our security, we're always looking to see whether there are new things we should be doing and how we should be keeping up the battle against terrorism. And in the aspect that you said about a tip-off - of course, as I just said, our approach to these things isn't concentrated on just one sort of response. So it's not just on physical security on airports. It is about that multi-layered approach … ANDREW MARR: Sure. THERESA MAY: … which brings in both police action and intelligence. ANDREW MARR: But we are looking at a new regime, are we not, of much tighter security of freight around the world's airfields? THERESA MAY: We are going to be looking at the security that we adopt in relation to freight. We'll be talking to the industry about these matters. I think crucially we've taken action in relation to the Yemen, but as part of our ongoing process of looking at our security arrangements, we will continue talking to the industry about the appropriate arrangements, the appropriate screening that's in place. ANDREW MARR: So are we going to see more screening of freight not just from the Yemen but from other parts of the world? THERESA MAY: Well, as I say Andrew, I'm not able to give you chapter and verse, and indeed it wouldn't be right for me to give you chapter and verse on that for this very reason. As I've just said, we're in a constant battle with the terrorists, so it wouldn't be sensible for me to sit here and say well what's going to happen is in future freight will be dealt with in this way … ANDREW MARR: The reason … THERESA MAY: … because that actually tells them what we're going to be doing … ANDREW MARR: Well the reason I'm asking for … THERESA MAY: … and that's not something for us to do. ANDREW MARR: The reason I'm asking obviously is that so much of the world's business is conducted by air freight transport, and that if this is going to be a completely new regime it's going to have massive economic impacts as well. THERESA MAY: I'm well aware of the economic aspect of freight transport. What I'm saying to you is that as a government, as governments across the world, we work very closely with our international partners and with industry looking at the arrangements that are in place, but you wouldn't expect me to say in detail what those operational arrangements will be. ANDREW MARR: Martin Broughton of BA has said this week that he thinks that a lot of the checks or some of the checks that we all have to go through in airports - the taking off of belts and shoes and so on - is too much. The Americans are imposing it on other countries. They don't impose it on their own air passengers inside America. Do you have some sympathy with that? THERESA MAY: Well what I think is important is that we have rigorous security arrangements at our airports. I'm sure that passengers going through the airports actually recognise why we have rigorous procedures at our airports. It's important that we have that layer of physical security. But of course, as I say, there are other aspects to the work that we do in keeping the country safe and work that's often … ANDREW MARR: (over) But is it too much though? I mean you know we all have the experience of going through and seeing you know an elderly granny with grandchildren being forced to take off her shoes and her boots and so on. Sometimes it seems oppressive and excessive. THERESA MAY: Well I know that sometimes it can feel frustrating for an individual going through when they're … ANDREW MARR: And sort of slightly silly as well actually sometimes. THERESA MAY: Well no. Look, we're in a battle against the terrorists and I think it's important that we look at, of course we look at the security levels that we have in place in terms of physical security and requirements on passengers who are going through airports. But I think for most people, they recognise that it's important that we have a rigorous system in place. But a lot of the work that is involved in this is of course work that's unseen. It is about the intelligence agencies and about police work as well. And it's bringing that together. We have the best in the business I think in our intelligence agencies, our police support, the ability to deal with these issues. But we have to be ever vigilant. We have still, this country, a severe threat level. That means that a terrorist attack in the UK is highly likely. So we must all be vigilant and that means that there are requirements on people in terms of physical security at airports, but it's right that those are there. ANDREW MARR: For obvious reasons everyone's sort of focusing on the Yemen at the moment, but you've just come back from Pakistan. And that's where the so-called Mumbai style attack is supposed to have been plotted. How worried are you about that kind of attack compared to the planes blowing up? How do you rate the two? THERESA MAY: Well there's been a lot of speculation and comment in the media recently about possible plot threats. What I would say is this. In relation to a Mumbai style attack, of course there was that attack in 2008. It was originated with Lashkar-e-Taiba. It is important for us that we look at what our response would be were such an attack to be launched here in the UK. And that's why within our Strategic Defence and Security Review, in our national security strategy that we set out very recently, we made clear that we are looking at enhancing police capability in this area. ANDREW MARR: Because it would take too long to get a specialist SAS unit, for instance, to the area where the attack was taking place? THERESA MAY: Well if an attack takes place obviously the first responders are the police. ANDREW MARR: Going to be the police. THERESA MAY: It's important that we … ANDREW MARR: And are they properly armed enough at the moment, do you think? THERESA MAY: Well it's important that we look at that armed response from the police and, if necessary, enhance our capability. ANDREW MARR: Do you think it needs to be enhanced? THERESA MAY: We're looking at the process. We are taking some measures to enhance the capability of the police at the moment. But again, I don't think it's right for me to go into specific details about we're doing. ANDREW MARR: Okay. Are the Pakistanis doing enough, do you think? THERESA MAY: I was … I've had a very good visit to Pakistan and I think the Pakistani government is very aware of the need to be dealing with terrorism. And it's right to note that of course Pakistan has suffered more than any other country in relation to the losses, the sacrifices that they've made, the number of people that have been killed - over 3,000 in Pakistan in relation to terrorism. And they are taking that seriously and we are working with them. It's a hugely important relationship for us … ANDREW MARR: Yes. THERESA MAY: … our relationship with Pakistan - both in terms obviously of the diaspora community here, the historic links we have with Pakistan; but also the ways in which we can be working together to counter this terrorist threat. ANDREW MARR: In the Spending Review, your department was one of the biggest losers. How many frontline police do we have now? THERESA MAY: We have just over 143,000 police officers, warranted police officers. And of course there are a number of, over 83,000 police staff and then nearly 17,000 PCSOs. ANDREW MARR: The Police Federation says that 20,000 of those will be lost. One of the big accountancy firms who've looked at it from the outside, Pricewaterhouse, say 18,000. Are those reasonable figures? THERESA MAY: I'm not going to put figures on what is going to happen for this reason, for two reasons, Andrew. And may I first of all … ANDREW MARR: Because it's embarrassing. THERESA MAY: No, it's not about whether or not it's embarrassing. It's … First of all, I challenge. I mean the Home Office actually wasn't one of the biggest losers in the spending round. But there are two things in looking at how we deal with this. We have to deal with Labour's legacy of this largest deficit in the G20. ANDREW MARR: We all understand that, but … THERESA MAY: The Home Office takes its share and policing is taking its share in that. ANDREW MARR: 23% is your share of the cut. That's a big whack. THERESA MAY: And it's less for police. And what we know for the police crucially - because the HMIC, the inspectorate of constabulary showed us this earlier this year - is that even if we just said to the least efficient police forces you must bring yourselves up to the level of the most efficient police forces, 12% could be taken out of budgets without affecting frontline policing. So that's the first thing. But, secondly, we are doing … ANDREW MARR: But that does leave 8% which will affect frontline policing. THERESA MAY: We are doing … Sorry, no, because the cut to the police is not 23%. The cut to the police is 20%. And if you take … ANDREW MARR: But you must know Home Secretary … THERESA MAY: But just hang on a minute, Andrew. Just hang on. ANDREW MARR: … you must know how many police you're going to lose? THERESA MAY: Hang on, Andrew. Just let me finish the answer to the question because if you don't know the answer, you can't ask the next question. What we do know is that if you look at the precept - because of course the police don't just get their money from central government, they get it from the precept as well - on historic trends of precept, actually that would on average bring the cut to the police down to 14%. Now how a force chooses to set its manpower is a matter for the chief constable. Operational independence of police forces is very important in this country. ANDREW MARR: But you're cutting the central grant to the police and you're cutting the grants to local authorities. And it doesn't sound to me like you're taking responsibility for any cuts in police numbers as a result of either of those. THERESA MAY: Well what I'm saying is that we know that it is possible for the police to make significant reductions in their budgets without affecting frontline policing. But what we're also doing is actually removing vast amounts of bureaucracy that have tied the police up and meant that at any point in time we know - again from HMIC - only 11% of those police officers that I'm talking about are available on the streets. (Marr tries to interject) And cutting the bureau… Let me just give you an example of this, if I may, because I think it brings it home to people exactly how … ANDREW MARR: Well if it does. THERESA MAY: Yes. What we're doing in terms of taking out the stop and account form and reducing the amount of information needed on the stop and search form means that we can take out 800,000 man hours a year. I think that's pretty significant. ANDREW MARR: Well let's settle on 18,000 fewer police because … THERESA MAY: No, I'm not going to settle on any figure, Andrew. ANDREW MARR: … because if you can't give me a figure … THERESA MAY: I'm not giving … Well I've explained why I'm not giving you a figure … ANDREW MARR: Okay. Well … THERESA MAY: … because frontline policing, we know that cuts can be taken without affecting frontline policing … ANDREW MARR: Okay, let's turn … THERESA MAY: … and that's where we should be looking first. ANDREW MARR: … okay well let's turn to something where maybe you can be helpful, which is what's going to happen to control orders and 28 day detention powers. Can you tell us whether it's true that you have gone with the current MI5 boss, Jonathan Evans, and decided to retain control orders retain 28 day detention? THERESA MAY: No decisions on the review have yet been taken. There's still some work going on in relation to the review. It covered a number of areas of counter-terrorism legislation, as you know. So some further work is being done and no decisions have been taken. What I'm clear about is that we do need to take some steps to rebalance national security and civil liberties, but of course commensurate always with ensuring that we can keep this country safe. ANDREW MARR: And will Lord Macdonald who's in charge of all of this, will he have the final say or will it be something that you and David Cameron will decide with Nick Clegg? THERESA MAY: Well, first of all, Lord Macdonald is doing a specific job, which is actually looking at the review that has taken place and ensuring that the process of that review was a proper one because the review itself is an internal review, so I thought it was appropriate that somebody externally should look at it and say yes they've asked the right questions, yes they've talked to the right people, they've considered all the issues. That's the job that Lord Macdonald is doing. But obviously ultimately decision on what is going to be in place in terms of our counter-terrorism legislation is a decision for the government. ANDREW MARR: Are local communities going to have real powers over their own policing and when will that happen? THERESA MAY: Yes they will, and it will happen from May 2012 when we are going to bring in the first elections for the new police and crime commissioners. And the police and crime commissioners will I think restore the link between people at a local level and what is happening in policing in their local area. For too long under Labour what we saw was the police being required to meet the targets set nationally, to look to the bureaucracy that was being set nationally instead of being able to do the job that I think they've always wanted to do, which is being able to respond at a local level. ANDREW MARR: You mention 2012 there. A lot of people will feel that it's an odd decision that the biggest chunk of cuts in the police, 8% year by year, happen in the year which is not only the Olympics year but also the year of the Diamond Jubilee. It's going to be a very busy year for policing. Strange time to have the biggest cut happening that year. THERESA MAY: Well crucially in relation to the Olympics, of course, the Olympic security budget … ANDREW MARR: (over) There is another budget, I know that. THERESA MAY: … is a significant part. ANDREW MARR: But nonetheless there'll be quite a lot of pressure on the police. THERESA MAY: … and a significant part of that Olympic security budget is about policing costs and we've protected that Olympic security budget. And that's an important decision that was taken in recognition of, of course, the need for us to be vigilant particularly at the time of the Olympics and the extra requirements that there will be. ANDREW MARR: Alright. For now, Home Secretary, thank you very much indeed. INTERVIEW ENDS
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