Meet Dr Heather McKee

PART 1

[00:00:00] START

[00:00:06] Heather: in terms of behavior change, as soon as someone starts to feel shame, they disengage and it's very then difficult to get them to reengage because they'll feel like they've failed or they failed the app or they fail the program that they're on and they won't wanna reengage. And a lot of these apps, they don't actually allow people an exit strategy and a reentry strategy.

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[00:00:52] Ross: PE Soupers. It is my honor to introduce you to Dr. Heather McKee. Heather is a health behavior change specialist.

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[00:01:07] Ross: also helps in individuals to create healthy habits that last through her bite-sized habits course. In this episode, we hear all about Heather's squiggly career path. The barriers to living a healthy life, the different types of motivation and much more.

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[00:01:27] Ross: People Soup is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often. Let's just scoot over to the news desk because reviews are in for part two of my chat with Professor Ross White Philip Addison on LinkedIn said, I listened [00:02:00] to the podcast Ross, which once again was extremely thought-provoking. I loved the observation regarding asking elite athletes how much time they spend on their mental, emotional fitness, Which they acknowledged had a significant impact on performance. It would be interesting to ask managers, leaders the same question. Absolutely, Philip. I couldn't agree more, And I hazard a guess. We could predict some of the responses from leaders and managers. Thanks so much to Philip and to everyone who listened.

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[00:02:41] Ross: People, supers are true labor of love, so anything you can do to spread the word is much appreciated, You might help someone else get insights to help them glow to work. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Heather McKee. Dr. Heather McKee. Welcome to People Soup.

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[00:03:04] Ross: Yeah, I'm excited you're here. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Now, Heather, I've mentioned my research department who've been digging out a little bit about you and like sort of exploring your, your presence and I've got some stuff to share with you and they don't always get everything right, so just keep an ear out

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[00:03:22] Heather: deep did they dig?

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[00:03:29] Heather: Let's

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[00:03:46] Ross: And that also supports individuals to take back control of their health and build healthy habits that last with her research back to bite-sized habits course. I'll come back to that in a minute. How are we doing so far? Does that sound[00:04:00]

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[00:04:00] Heather: Sounds pretty

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[00:04:01] Ross: Great. Now it says here that they found out that you grew up in Ireland.

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[00:04:07] Heather: No surprise there.

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[00:04:28] Ross: And you really had this first to understand why well-intentioned people with all the resources they needed couldn't stick to their healthy habit goals. So you explored that a bit further. You were really so curious and sat down with each person in the clinic to understand more about what was holding them back.

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[00:05:17] Ross: I think peace supers, I think you'll be a GOG at this. We love talking about behavior change. we love talking about habits too. So the kind of next piece of the jigsaw is that when your studies were published and released to the mainstream media, there was an influx of inquiries. People really want to know about this stuff, and you realize the importance of sharing your work outside of academia.

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[00:05:46] Ross: more.

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[00:05:52] Ross: No, listen, this is such a, it chimes so well with what we talk about quite a lot on people's soup, the behavioral [00:06:00] science, and it says here, and Heather is generous too. There's a free bite-sized course on her website@heathermckee.co.uk and I'll make sure that links in the show notes, of course.

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[00:06:25] Ross: people will get the evidence-based research backed blueprint for making lasting positive changes in their lives. Lyme. this is a free course online.

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[00:06:37] Ross: Now it says here, Heather is a keen sportswoman and equestrian, and was recently spotted, not far from me, near Seville, showing great skills and control on horseback in El Roth. And it says here, I'm not sure whether you can comment on this, Heather, but it says so much so that she's now in early talks with Hollywood to have a side hustle as a horseback

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[00:07:01] Heather: Oh, I'm not, I'm not, I can't disclose that as of yet.

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[00:07:10] Ross: that.

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[00:07:33] Heather: And I just thought, this is life itself. I was just on cloud nine.

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[00:07:53] Ross: walk.

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[00:08:12] Heather: It's fantastic.

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[00:08:27] Heather: Yeah.

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[00:08:41] Ross: But I wonder, we'd like to find out a bit more about you. I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling us more about. Your career, how it's evolved, and how you've arrived at where you're at today. Just tell us some of the, the key points, maybe the pivotal moments, cuz it just helps us understand you and who you are and, and why you do what you do.

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[00:09:02] Ross: Well.

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[00:09:21] Heather: As you kind of rightly put out, I'm a very curious person, even to the point where I was asking you just before you came on about what cup of tea you're drinking and um, I think I had to harness that for good, otherwise I'd be really irritating. So I brought my curiosity to understanding human behavior better.

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[00:09:54] Heather: And when I sat down with them, I realized that every single person had their own kind of individual [00:10:00] barriers. They all had their own, personal experiences that actually were holding 'em back potentially from success. And, and it made me kind of curious as you could have all the perfect ingredients for health, and yet it was a method that they were missing.

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[00:10:31] Heather: And I think that's what got me started on that journey to understand more about implementation. How do we get people to turn their intentions into actions? How do we help them overcome those barriers? And I think that was what a lot of my research was around was like, why do some people manage to stick with their goals long term?

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[00:11:13] Heather: Whereas, you know, what I was curious about was skills and, and skill power, and I think that's what formed my early research career. and then I went a bit squiggly because I think I burned out a bit after PhD, to do with research. and I, I ran a, weight maintenance group, um, for people in socially deprived areas in Birmingham.

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[00:11:55] Heather: And they were, they were told not to adjust their diet, or their exercise in any particular way. And [00:12:00] yet somehow, you know, they lost the same amount of weight, but they also had incredible differences in psychological markers, and that was way more significant. um, they'd reduced stress, they'd reduced depression.

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[00:12:32] Heather: Um, and at the time didn't have very much media experience. So I was telling everyone about all my habits, chat away to people at, you know, the LA Times about my Christmas dinner and what I have and all, not known that they would write a whole piece on like, but you know, it was all, it was a result of that.

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[00:13:13] Heather: And it meant, meant a lot to me. And actually reading through the comments of that, I really thought, do you know what, that's what I wanna do. I wanna be able to translate the research into ways that people can change their lives right now. And I feel like if I stay in academia, I'm going to only share it really within academia.

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[00:13:52] Heather: And so I was working with different charities, helping them create wellbeing programs, especially around people with longer term [00:14:00] conditions, helping support them, with the psychological skills needed to actually engage in health behaviors and maintain them long term. and while I was working for those, um, consultancies, I got asked by a couple of, I did a couple of digital interventions as part of, um, some of my research.

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[00:14:31] Heather: So I was able to keep one foot in boat camps, which I think, you know, you yourself, Ross, you know, do that. And I, I think that's a wonderful way. To kind of stay engaged in both fields cuz I was really, I was a bit sad about leaving academia in a way because I love research and I love learning more and I love the papers and everything else, but I found the publication side a bit punishing and, I really just loved that, you know, working with people, part of it.

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[00:15:04] Ross: Hmm. Lovely. And I love the way you describe it as a squiggly career line because you know what, I think I ask a lot of my guests about their career and, and they generally turn out to be squiggly and interesting and have those decision points, and that's kind of maybe experimentation points where we think, yeah, no, yeah, no, that's not for me.

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[00:15:33] Heather: No, and I think that's really, I think that's, I did a talk recently to a group of PhD students, and I think that's a really important point I get a lot of inquiries saying, oh, can I work with you or work for you? I, I just, what you do is so cool. Like it's amazing.

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[00:16:04] Heather: And so then I started doing loads more speaking and realized, geez, that's something I absolutely love. And, you know, now I'm trying to, you know, move my work maybe into that. So I'm doing 50% consulting, 50% speaking. Whereas before I would be like, no, I. I don't think I could be a speaker or, you know, that's not really what, what I'll do.

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[00:16:44] Heather: Like, you know, we're, we're There's a human behavior, science is spreading, you know, across the globe and people are really seeing, the importance of it, in understanding, you know, why people do what they do.

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[00:17:15] Heather: Yeah,

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[00:17:19] Ross: What, what do you love about sort of, I guess, is a speaking engagement? Is that something where you go and talk for a company to a big group of people? Are there any examples you could share about, about how you approach something like

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[00:17:32] Heather: yeah, like, I think for me, so I'm doing a keynote in two weeks and. It's, it's in the midst of, you know, I, I was looking at the agenda when I was preparing, the stuff and it was all about, the financial uncertainty and, you know, it was a lot of doom and gloom. And I thought, you know what I'm gonna do?

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[00:18:12] Heather: And, and I, I think that, trying to design talks that are really joyful and interesting for people enhances intrinsic motivation, which is the sticky motivation, which is much more likely to engage people and much more likely to shift their behaviors in the positive direction of change. And so I think the way I would approach that is I would think about what would I want to hear if I was in the audience right now?

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[00:18:52] Heather: Um, I actually just got some feedback there from a talk I did last week. And the woman, said that she said she was so motivated afterwards. She went out for her first run in six years, literally just after the talk. And she's like, I didn't even know I wanted to run, but there I was out running. and that's, that's something that I just, yeah, it's so meaningful for me.

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[00:19:29] Heather: also just love a good chat as well about behavior change. So anyone who's willing, they're, silly enough to come talk to me about it. They, they better say themselves a good hour of the day because I'm always curious to find out more.

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[00:19:55] Ross: I mean, a lot of my work is around skills building and[00:20:00] I dunno about you, but I find that the more I am myself, the more people can relate to what I'm saying and take it and think about how they could apply it in their own lives. Do you find a similar

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[00:20:14] Heather: Yeah, I, I love that you say that Ross, cuz actually. I was on a podcast recently and it was, it's called Experts Podcast, and it's all about experts in the field. And I kind of, I don't love the word expert because I always feel like everyone's an expert on themselves in a way, and I'm just a specialist and I kind of, you know, try and evoke your own personal expertise out of you, rather than kind of coming in and saying, well, I've all powerful in knowing and, you know, would know more than anyone else.

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[00:21:11] Heather: and even, you know, I only put my website in my actual name only in the last couple of years cuz I was, you know, afraid to become my brand in a way because I, I'd seen everything that was happening on social media and I, I didn't really, that didn't really resonate with me either. And, yeah, I was afraid to be visible in, in my business.

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[00:21:50] Heather: And so everyone knows I fail at my habits all the time, you know, because that's something I'm, so, you know, that's the reason I'm in the field that I'm in because I find it so [00:22:00] interesting and intriguing and, and I succeed at habits a lot of the time too. But it's all an experiment ultimately.

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[00:22:22] Ross: I, I love the humanity and what you're role modeling for us,

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[00:22:26] Ross: and I too would be A little bit wary and uncomfortable about being hailed as the expert because I think it immediately puts you on a bit of a pedestal of people are looking up to you and in terms of habits and skills development, it can be that, Hey, here's Heather, or here's Ross.

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[00:23:08] Ross: That self-disclosure can be really powerful. It makes people look at you and me and go, Hey, they're just like me. If they can do this and keep going, even when they are unsuccessful. Then there must be something in these skills that is sticky.

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[00:23:43] Heather: You know, not focusing on the outcome, but trying to fall in love with the process. All of these key factors that are necessary for long-term health behavior change were exactly the same factors that were necessary for maintaining, you know, the health of a business. And yet when I started out, I tried to do everything all at [00:24:00] once and I thought I could make changes overnight.

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[00:24:25] Heather: You know, more recently I had a, a hip operation and after my operation I came back too strong. I tried to win at rehab, I tried to succeed too quickly, which is something that we all try and do with our health. You know, we think in January we're gonna, um, you know, change everything and we throw everything in the kitchen sink at it, and then by February we feel like, you know, a massive fader.

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[00:25:05] Heather: so yeah, I'm definitely a good example of. Failing at and at time and time again. But I think the important thing there is that I have that bounce back ability that I'm actually able to, not say, oh, it's all or nothing. I'm, I'm going to reflect, I'm gonna grow and I'm gonna then, change things as I go forward again.

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[00:25:34] Ross: the recovery.

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[00:25:37] Heather: perfectionist, so I have to watch that in myself constantly. but again, that's the beauty of self-awareness, isn't it, Ross? Like, and I, I think it takes a long time to get to that point, but I know you talk a lot about acceptance, commitment therapy, and I find that that's such a beautiful tool for really helping you learn and understand and know yourself better.

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[00:26:15] Heather: And, you know, we can work on those just as much as we can work on our physical habits, you know? Um, and I think that's, that's quite important to remember.

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[00:26:33] Ross: you do?

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[00:27:04] Heather: I'm gonna earn X amount of money or, you know, and we look at those kind of outcomes. and we think that they're gonna drive us. And then, then a couple of weeks in, you know, we're striving for those and, and we, and we make a mistake as we would call it. And we feel like, oh, I'm never gonna get to that goal.

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[00:27:40] Heather: And ultimately, that's not what motivates us as humans long term. We need to tap more into intrinsic motivation. And, and Rossi love this intrinsic, and Latin is the word inward, and it translates into goods for the soul. And, and I love that phrase because it's like, Yeah. In essence, [00:28:00] like anything that nourishes your soul is what intrinsic is.

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[00:28:04] Heather: So it's about falling in love with the process. It's about how you following a particular goal represents who you are in the world, how it makes you better role model for your children, or allows you to better apply yourself at work or contribute more to your, community. and it's something I I, I talk about a lot is like, you know, how can we start with why, rather than a number?

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[00:28:42] Heather: We're actually saying, well, do you know what? Today went out for a run. I felt really free when I came back, I felt so accomplished. Or this morning I woke up and had a glass of water and a fresh slice of lemon and it made me feel really refreshed and, uh, just energized for the day, or, or, you know, last night I got to into bed half an hour earlier and I woke up just feeling just much more calm this morning and just a lovely sense of self and achievement even before I started my day.

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[00:29:22] Ross: Yeah, I love hearing you speak because it really shows the sort of connection between what we both do the, the really close connection. We're both working on developing skills, we're both working on developing new habits, and mine is more principally from acceptance and commitment therapy and act. And it's very much about what gives you personal meaning,

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[00:29:46] Ross: what does meaning that helps you move towards this goal.

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[00:30:05] Ross: Oh look, you haven't been out on your bike today, therefore you're useless and you're never gonna stick to this. But I love that intrinsic, that that definition is, is absolutely beautiful. And it really speaks to that inner purpose and motivation and drive and how we can show that in our behavior.

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[00:30:49] Heather: Others tend to focus on, I, you know, I, I find that a lot when I work with corporates, you know, and, and then, and they're sharing, you know, their wellbeing program. They're like, well, we've got a step challenge and we've got a step program and all. And I'm like, which is great. It's great to get people engaged, you know, and often those extrinsic motivators can engage someone at the start, but they're not gonna keep them engaged.

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[00:31:20] Ross: Hmm. And noticing how it contributes to our lives. You're making me think. Um, cuz I had a bit of a lull lump. I love cycling as I've mentioned, and I had a bit of a lull in January because I had this stinking cold that absolutely knocked me out and I wasn't on my bike. And then I was, it gets more difficult to get back on the bike and then I was thinking, oh, I'll just do a, like a five kilometer or a six kilometer.

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[00:32:06] Heather: Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it? You're like, thinking about that end point, because I always say, you know, you can crave your healthy habits just as much as your unhealthy ones and what you're focused there on, you know, with the nature and everything you're creating. So when you're lying in bed, you know, weighing up the pros and cons, should I actually go for as bike ride or not?

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[00:32:43] Heather: what you're tuning into is all the joys and the pleasures. Um, you know, that makes it more, you crave it more and you're more likely to engage with it because there is less friction. Um, and you, you, those things are so salient to you, which is, which is so nice.

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[00:33:15] Ross: Sometimes it can feel a bit kind of robotic.

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[00:33:33] Heather: Beyond the numbers, how is it, as you say, personally meaningful for them? why did they show up? Because otherwise they're gonna use the app for a week, two weeks. they'll maybe track monitor really well, but. Then they'll, you know, fall off the wagon and they'll start to feel shame. And shame is one of those kind of big red lights.

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[00:33:52] Heather: in terms of behavior change, as soon as someone starts to feel shame, they disengage and it's very then difficult to get them to reengage because [00:34:00] they'll feel like they've failed or they failed the app or they fail the program that they're on and they won't wanna reengage. And a lot of these apps, they don't actually allow people an exit strategy and a reentry strategy.

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[00:34:37] Ross: never thought of it in terms of apps, if you sort of miss a day or, or don't upload something, or don't do an exercise, then, then you can feel like it's more shameful to, to reenter or you can feel castigated rather than welcomed and reinforced for actually coming back to the app, coming back to the bike or the activity or

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[00:34:58] Heather: Yeah, I always say like, it's kind of like friendship, you know, you've gotta treat it like friendship, but friendship. You don't start asking someone stats straight away, you know, when you first meet them. Um, and then over time as well, you, you know, when an old friend comes to the door and you haven't seen them in a while, what reaction do you have when they show up?

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[00:35:34] Heather: You have to be a friend, first and foremost. And I think that's what a lot of these apps. Miss is that ability to actually, and I'm not saying pretend to be someone that you're not. I'm just saying be a friend to someone and actually allow them to have slippages, allow them to, bounce back even more so, reward them for bouncing back because it's the bouncing back, you know, that bounce back ability that's so key.

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[00:36:16] Ross: It doesn't have to be forever, but. Where you are in your life right now, what song choice would that be?

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[00:36:42] Heather: Um, and that's Whitney Houston The Greatest Love.

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[00:37:12] Heather: And, you know, it kind of intertwines with all we're talking about, in terms of, being. Able to pick yourself back up and be a coach rather than a critic and all of those important things. But I think the lyrics of it really, just represent that really well. Um, I, I dunno if you know it well, Ross, or you want me to read you a little, bit of the lyrics there?

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[00:38:00] Ross: I actually know it all, but, um, That's the one, isn't it? I haven't got a, oh,

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[00:38:05] Heather: it's especially the, the chorus. Can you, can you start on, I decided long ago.

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[00:38:32] Ross: because the greatest love of all. Now, I'm not sure whether I got all those

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[00:38:40] Heather: Yes. Cause yeah, I just love it cuz it's like the greatest love of all is happening in me. It's inside of me, you know, and it's, it's like she talks about like, learning to love yourself essentially is the greatest love of all. Um, and you know, we're the only person we're gonna be with for our entire lives.

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[00:39:16] Ross: P Supers. That's it. Part one of my chat with Heather in the bag. Thanks so much, Heather, for being so open and generous in our conversation. There's more to look forward to in part two next week where we delve more into Heather's work on healthy habits that stick.

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[00:39:54] We'd love to get your reviews. So please let us know what you think on the socials or drop me an email or a voice note on [00:40:00] WhatsApp.

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[00:40:19] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

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[00:40:49] Heather: Do you want anything?

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[00:40:52] Ross: my cold

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[00:40:57] Ross: Mm. It's like nectar

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[00:41:16] Heather: Not all caffeinated cuz otherwise I'd be bent off the walls.

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